tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19384577.post4137713251768473107..comments2024-03-20T19:23:09.857+02:00Comments on Notes from underground: Anti-Zionism and antisemitismSteve Hayeshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11283123400540587033noreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19384577.post-14327681031153716942009-10-26T08:46:33.163+02:002009-10-26T08:46:33.163+02:00This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19384577.post-44934342997981484042009-10-21T10:12:46.943+02:002009-10-21T10:12:46.943+02:00OK, leaving aside whether or not you are antisemet...OK, leaving aside whether or not you are antisemetic, or even anti-Zionist, and also this particular action in 2006 as I am not very comfortable myself with Israel's involvement in Lebanon, I don't understand this concept of "disproportionality", frequently used nowadays for all of Israel's involvements in self-defense, even ones like Gaza where they demonstrably avoided civilian targeting, as I didn't know a war had to be fought evenly, with referees from the UN's collection of "democracies" who are so concerned with Israel's behavior complaining if you win too much. If the US had fought against Japan in "proportional" ways for the attack on Pearl Harbor, they never would have won WWII.Ploni Almonihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12131538106813973665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19384577.post-12595236750129096342009-10-21T05:27:19.876+02:002009-10-21T05:27:19.876+02:00Ploni Almoni,
Thnere must be quite a number of di...Ploni Almoni,<br /><br />Thnere must be quite a number of dishonest people around then, because some people keep telling me that "Anti-Zionism is Antisemitism". <br /><br />I don't especially label myself as "Anti-Zionist", any more than I'm "Anti-Hellenist", but if I say that the Israeli bombing of Lebanon in 2006 was, to say the least, disproportionate, they refer me to, and sometimes send me copies of a piece by Martin Luther King, and tell me that I'm denying Israel's right to exist.<br /><br />I agree with you that those people are being dishonest when they say such things, but there are quite a lot of them out there.Steve Hayeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11283123400540587033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19384577.post-23995198226793092542009-10-21T02:56:33.499+02:002009-10-21T02:56:33.499+02:00I think this is a bit of a red herring, like Chris...I think this is a bit of a red herring, like Chris H said, anti-Zionism is rarely labeled by honest people as outright antisemitism. However, that doesn't mean that there isn't such a thing as anti-Zionists who are also anti-semitic. I'm not sure also what you mean by "anti-Zionist", you seem to imply you accept the right of Israel to exist, but not to wage war excessively. That's an acceptable position, in fact, many Israelis feel (and occasionally vote) that way themselves. I'm not sure why you've chosen to label yourself as an anti-Zionist, perhaps you could elaborate.Ploni Almonihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12131538106813973665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19384577.post-67024358236590294572009-10-20T16:36:21.652+02:002009-10-20T16:36:21.652+02:00@ Chris H: I have seen people using the conflation...@ Chris H: I have seen people using the conflation of anti-Zionism with anti-Semitism on mailing lists and in conversation, though.<br /><br />@ Steve: yes, do save your Geocities stuff for posterity. There's a nice little app called WinHTTP which allows you to download an entire website.Yewtreehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02028699564003381058noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19384577.post-69587636010170720352009-10-20T08:55:51.350+02:002009-10-20T08:55:51.350+02:00Teofilo,
It was not that I did not want to endors...Teofilo,<br /><br />It was not that I did not want to endorse a Catholic viewpoint, but the comparison of Zionism with Hellenism would have been irrelevant to your post, but not to Ad Orientem's post, since that is an Orthodox blog.Steve Hayeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11283123400540587033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19384577.post-22344662482384001192009-10-19T21:28:57.390+02:002009-10-19T21:28:57.390+02:00Hello Teófilo de Jesús, it's good of you to re...Hello Teófilo de Jesús, it's good of you to reply.<br /><br />I'm sure there is a lot in which we may all converge in your post but unfortunately the core theme and conclusions don't, at least for me bring me to an agreement.<br /><br />Some of the statements you make, such as regarding the inability to separate anti-zionism from anti-semeitism, not just in theory but in practice I would have to disagree on.<br /><br />The zionism that underpins the state of Israel exists on many levels, secular and religious and this seems to be outworking in practice to things both good and bad.<br /><br />For good we have a safe refuge and haven for European and world Jewry who have suffered much in times past and times not so long ago.<br /><br />But we also have the issue of a nation based on race and religious identity that is causing much pain and suffering. The outworking of religious zionism manifest in the settler movement is causing much grief to many parties, not least those who dwell in lands designated as given to them in scripture.<br /><br />The state of Israel has to be open to criticism and to attempt to deny valid debate with accusations of anti-semitism does not seem right to me.<br /><br />ChrisChris Hallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18319782662130679058noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19384577.post-53827443675223513172009-10-19T19:13:45.935+02:002009-10-19T19:13:45.935+02:00Greetings Chris,
I will say this, with all due re...Greetings Chris,<br /><br />I will say this, with all due respect to you and to Father Deacon Methodios: I don't think either of you read the entire piece down to its conclusions. You and Father Deacon, <a href="http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2364575/posts" rel="nofollow">as well as other critics from the opposite end who have accused me of being anti-Israel and anti-Semitic</a>, went no further than the middle part of the post. Otherwise, you would've engaged the conclusions constructively and may have even found some convergences. Sadly, none of you did so. <br /><br />I also find troubling Fr. Deacon's reluctance to leave his comment on my site due to his apparent concern of somehow endorsing a Catholic viewpoint on this subject if he had chosen to reply in <i>Vivificat</i>. I have no such scruples as I leave this comment on his site. <br /><br />Anyway, I blame myself for all this. The post was long and unwieldly. I should've broken it up and made it tighter. Alas, my fault. <br /><br />I take umbrage under the oft-made statement that complex thought requires at times complex writing. I can't say I believe it myself but, despite my own preferences on the matter, it came out that way.<br /><br />I want to finish by saying that, although taking fire from both ends of the spectrum does not necessarily mean that I wrote a balanced piece, in this case, I'll take it for that.<br /><br />Yours in Christ,<br />-TheoTeófilo de Jesúshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03013188371223503953noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19384577.post-41310246885945841122009-10-18T09:58:50.881+02:002009-10-18T09:58:50.881+02:00I can't remember seeing an article for a long ...I can't remember seeing an article for a long while where the label of anti-semitism has been used to denigrate an anti-zionist stance. I think most people have rumbled that technique.<br /><br />A good post there Steve, aren't you saving all of your stuff on geocities for posterity or hosting them elsewhere?Chris Hallhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18319782662130679058noreply@blogger.com