tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19384577.post313915384176403550..comments2024-03-20T19:23:09.857+02:00Comments on Notes from underground: Easter - Christian or pagan?Steve Hayeshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11283123400540587033noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19384577.post-90627262384902694862012-04-13T10:54:20.706+02:002012-04-13T10:54:20.706+02:00After belatedly reading the article - I am a newco...After belatedly reading the article - I am a newcomer to Tumblr - and all of the comments, I have the following to add.<br /><br />It is no surprise that Christianity is simply a bastardization of the original practice and teachings of Yeshua (Jesus). As the gospel and practices spread throughout the ancient world, Yeshua's original beliefs and practices became more and more indistinguishable from a hodgepodge of polytheistic paganism.<br /><br />If one really wants to get to the roots of Yeshua's teachings and practice it was nothing other than Judaism...arielhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11947197822480177725noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19384577.post-23668783971843231292007-10-02T16:54:00.000+02:002007-10-02T16:54:00.000+02:00Nic,I'm still trying to catch up after being cut o...Nic,<BR/><BR/>I'm still trying to catch up after being cut off by Telkom's broadband limits -- happens at the end of every month.Steve Hayeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11283123400540587033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19384577.post-58556913157918319232007-10-02T13:00:00.000+02:002007-10-02T13:00:00.000+02:00YvonneYes, indeed a good article on Eostre -- tell...Yvonne<BR/><BR/>Yes, indeed a good article on Eostre -- tells it like it is. <BR/><BR/>And the chocolate thing can also be explained in the same way as the Easter eggs -- Western Christians began giving up chocolate for Lent, rather than eggs, cheese and butter. So naturally they gorged on it at Easter. <BR/><BR/>If you are going to write something along those lines, Charles Williams's <I>Witchcraft</I> is worth a read. <BR/><BR/>Nic,<BR/><BR/>I've written something on hell in my other blog!Steve Hayeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11283123400540587033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19384577.post-57508161080042073482007-10-02T12:14:00.000+02:002007-10-02T12:14:00.000+02:00Steve - is there any particular reason why you oft...Steve - is there any particular reason why you often don't respond to my comments on your blog? I find that your writing excellant and evocative but the conversations don't ever seem to progress.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19384577.post-73506610035233307592007-10-01T18:22:00.000+02:002007-10-01T18:22:00.000+02:00Ha ha! talking of cultural theft, I'm going to nic...Ha ha! talking of cultural theft, I'm going to nick the idea of synchroblogging :)<BR/><BR/>By the way, if you notice any incorrect statements about Christianity in the Pagan theologies wiki, I'd be glad to correct them.Yewtreehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02028699564003381058noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19384577.post-69498819717036252852007-10-01T17:46:00.000+02:002007-10-01T17:46:00.000+02:00There's a good debunking of the Eostre thing from ...There's <A HREF="http://www.manygods.org.uk/articles/essays/eostre.html" REL="nofollow">a good debunking of the Eostre thing from a polytheist point of view at manygods.org.uk</A>.<BR/><BR/>I believe in the resurrection of Jesus because I've seen him. I don't know if it was in a physical body (not that important from my point of view). It's what you do with that belief that is important.<BR/><BR/>I am also aware of the dying and resurrecting god themes from earlier cultures, and I think the symbolism of Jesus' death and resurrection in Christianity (the substitute sacrifice idea, for example) may have been drawn from those cultures.<BR/><BR/>I think also that ideas of cultural theft in this context should just be dropped - after all, "neo"-Pagans could be argued to be committing cultural appropriation by taking ancient pagan ideas out of context. And Wiccans could be accused of stealing the ideas of apostolic succession or communion.<BR/><BR/>To The Scylding: if by "I used to be pagan too" you mean you didn't have a belief, that is not the same as being a Pagan.<BR/><BR/>Even though many people feel that Christianity stamped out ancient paganism, at least the church took the trouble to write down a lot of pagan customs and ideas, which might otherwise have been lost even if Christianity hadn't come along.<BR/><BR/>And for witches, it's worth remembering that the early Christians prevented the pagans of late antiquity from doing witch-burnings.<BR/><BR/>Thanks for these interesting posts, Steve - I'm thinking of writing a potted history of Christianity from the point of view of Paganism, to set the record straight a bit. There are things to criticise, but if Pagans are going to criticise, we should at least get our facts straight!Yewtreehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02028699564003381058noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19384577.post-89771020971173392002007-10-01T14:06:00.000+02:002007-10-01T14:06:00.000+02:00Mahud, Yes, it's a long time since I read Frazer t...Mahud, <BR/><BR/>Yes, it's a long time since I read Frazer too, and I'm not sure that all historians of religion would agree with his thesis. <BR/><BR/>And certainly, because Pascha is celebrated in the northern hemisphere spring, some Christian theologians and hymnographers have used that metaphor. Having grown up in the southern hemisphere, I don't find such imagery quite so compelling. <BR/><BR/>For example J.M. Neale's paraphrase of another hymn:<BR/><BR/>'Tis the spring of souls today <BR/>Christ has burst his prison<BR/>and from three days sleep in death<BR/>as a sun hath risen<BR/>all the winter of our sins<BR/>long and dark, is flying<BR/>from his light to whom we give<BR/>laud and praise undying.<BR/><BR/>At one time, in a reaction against Northern Hemisphere cultural imperialism, I changed it to read:<BR/><BR/>'Tis the dawn of joy today<BR/>Christ has burst his prison<BR/>And from three days' sleep in death<BR/>as a sun has risen<BR/>all the night of death and sin<BR/>long and dark, is flying<BR/>from his light, to whom we give<BR/>laud and praise undying.<BR/><BR/>I even flatter myself sometimes that my metaphor is more consistent than Neale's!Steve Hayeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11283123400540587033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19384577.post-38659046733097572362007-10-01T13:45:00.000+02:002007-10-01T13:45:00.000+02:00Scylding,So were you stolen? Kidnapped from the me...Scylding,<BR/><BR/>So were you stolen? Kidnapped from the mead hall, perhaps?<BR/><BR/>Julie,<BR/><BR/>About setting the stage: I can't think of any examples, but I would not be surprised if some Christian preacher somewhere and somewhen, had used one of those stories of a dying and rising god to show that God planted those stories in peoples' cultures to prepare them for the good news of the resurrection of Christ.Steve Hayeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11283123400540587033noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19384577.post-62332091130976235682007-10-01T10:03:00.000+02:002007-10-01T10:03:00.000+02:00SteveLike your factoid debunking, a sorely needed ...Steve<BR/>Like your factoid debunking, a sorely needed ministry.<BR/><BR/>Having studied the origins of "hell" and "eternal" I have recently read Elaine Pagals "The origin of Satan". <BR/><BR/>These loaded myths really need to be deconstructed, to get as close as possible to the core truths as we humanly can.<BR/><BR/>Your disciplined approach to the "problem of Easter" continues this journey for me. Great research, very helpful.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19384577.post-34166354314628460442007-09-30T01:21:00.000+02:002007-09-30T01:21:00.000+02:00I can't comment on anything particular to this arg...I can't comment on anything particular to this argument, but I do know that the Cabinet Room (UK) contains a complete edition of the 'Golden Bough' as I visited it last year.<BR/><BR/>Don't know if you find that interesting at all.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19384577.post-3434255650516695522007-09-29T09:48:00.000+02:002007-09-29T09:48:00.000+02:00As a Pagan who believes in the existence of a 'dea...As a Pagan who believes in the existence of a 'death and rebirth deity,' I believe that this archaic idea was probably drawn form certain observations of natural phenomena, that embodied principles of life and death. Including the cycles of the moon, the death, the rejuvenation of vegetation, the shedding of the snake's skin, and so on, which then became associated with a deity becoming the embodiment of death and life, and somewhere down the line, this deity was also the god who offered new life in one form or another to the community. <BR/><BR/>I'm not sure that Wikipedia actually gets it right concerning The Golden Bough, unless they are referring to other material James Frazer has written.<BR/><BR/>Frazer believed in a universal corn or vegetation spirit, not a Sun God, which developed into the widepread practice of sacrificing a tribal king after an alloted time period, or should the kings health and strength become to wane. I don't think he really included into his theory the ancient belief in a Goddess and her son-consort. Admittedly it's been a while since I read the book, so I've likely forgotten a great deal of it. <BR/><BR/>I do know that many influenced by Frazer's work emphasized the role of the Goddess, such as Robert Graves, in both The White Goddess and The Greek Myths.<BR/><BR/>I think it's possible that the Death and Resurrection of Jesus may have been influenced by the 'dying and rebirth' deity, but it's also possible that Jesus did in fact rise from the dead. If that is so, then I'm not surprised than the older Pagan myths of death-rebirth gods/goddesses/heroes, and other mythical figures, may of found their way into the Christian tradition.<BR/><BR/>Julie said: <I>This is a pattern common to goddess worship that passed from culture to culture. The trapping of worship of one goddess became associated with the head goddess in another as history and cultural interaction progressed. Tracing this history is fascinating and has been one of the main topic of my reading these past few months.</I><BR/><BR/>Hi, Julie. Do you intend posting any of your studies on your blog? I'd love to read them. :)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19384577.post-25896394258135402482007-09-28T17:16:00.000+02:002007-09-28T17:16:00.000+02:00Thanks for continuing the conversation on this top...Thanks for continuing the conversation on this topic here. <BR/><BR/>I know that there are those who when they say Christians "stole" Easter from the Pagans mean that the whole Christ story was made up. When I use that term, I in no way deny the historicity or significance of the Resurrection. As I mentioned at my blog, if God choose to set the stage in a way that connected the Passion to other cultural myths that would echo in the hearts of people, then it can just been seen as myth becoming reality. <BR/><BR/>I was referring to the naming and trappings of the holiday. Placing it near the spring equinox that held association with fertility rites and the return of life meant the Pagan celebrations of such would become intertwined with the religious aspects of the holiday. And that rite has been associated with the archtype of the goddess (her lamenting at the death of her son/consort) the celebration of either his resurrection or his seed giving life to the world. This is a pattern common to goddess worship that passed from culture to culture. The trapping of worship of one goddess became associated with the head goddess in another as history and cultural interaction progressed. Tracing this history is fascinating and has been one of the main topic of my reading these past few months. <BR/><BR/>So my point is to say that the trapping of the celebration of Easter have Pagan roots which does not negate the truth or Christ, just shows that as Christians we do not exist in an isolated ghetto and have been influenced by other cultures and religions over time.Juliehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03206979106299888527noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-19384577.post-17687447094155890502007-09-27T18:50:00.000+02:002007-09-27T18:50:00.000+02:00When it comes to pagan origins of Easter / Christm...When it comes to pagan origins of Easter / Christmas / Christmas tree etc etc, I like to repeat something I read (not sure where)- well I used to be pagan too!Magotty Manhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06039164409659890130noreply@blogger.com